My first endeavours - starting with Zelkova
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My first endeavours - starting with Zelkova was created by Cherry_Crow
Posted 3 weeks 17 hours ago #85188
Hi,Like many others on this forum, I’m a beginner trying to absorb as much knowledge as possible, but I still feel quite lost in the world of bonsai. I’ve decided to start with an indoor bonsai and chose a Zelkova. I ordered a small tree from a local supplier (see the attached image) and plan to style it in the classic “broom” form. However, I’m unsure where to begin. The trunk already seems quite thick, with many small twigs at the top. Should I let it grow freely this season and prune it later to enhance ramification? Or would more drastic cuts be better? I’d love to hear your thoughts.I also have a newbie question and would appreciate any insights. Given the tree’s current shape (as shown in the image), if I allow a leading branch at the top to thicken, how will it affect the trunk’s development? Will the trunk gradually taper to match the branch’s width, or will the difference in thickness be more pronounced and look unnatural? Would you keep this tree in such pot or maybe move it to a larger one to let the trunk to thicken more a bit?
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Replied by Cherry_Crow on topic My first endeavours - starting with Zelkova
Posted 3 weeks 13 hours ago #85193
I noticed that the image was not attached - attaching it now! Sorry!
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Replied by Tropfrog on topic My first endeavours - starting with Zelkova
Posted 3 weeks 12 hours ago #85196
First of all, welcome to the empire 
Very interesting. Looks like it is a grafted stump. I have never seen such trees sold as mallsai.
I will refraim from answering your questions for now and only answer the important questions you have not yet asked:
Your tree is not a japanese elm (zelkova serrata), it is a chinese elm (ulmus parvifolia). This is the most misslabled tree on the market. Everything points against that it is an intentional misslabeling from the producers. Nobody knows why for sure, but many thinks that it is due to the dutch elm disease. Trees labled ulmus would be in risk of getting stuck in customs and die according to that theory. It sounds like a good theory to me.
Now, it does not matter very much for the buyer as zelkova serrata and ulmus parvifolia both are temperate decidious trees and needs about the same care. Talking about that, here comes the answer on the second question you have not yet asked: No temperate decidious trees survives in livingroom conditions long term. They normally deteriorate slowly over a period of 1-3 years and eventually dies. I would asume what the industry call "indoor" trees is trees that cannot be produced efficiently outdoors everywhere in the temperate world. That they are produced in greenhouses, which is technically indoors. But they still need winter dormancy and the temperature fluctuations between day and night to survive and thrive. I do see an economic incentive to call them indoor trees. The market wants indoor bonsai, so they give the market what they want. The market in this case is defined exclusevly as beginners that would pick up a mallsai tree in a garden center, big buck store or even online. Most of these people will just fail within the 1-3 years the trees can go without proper dormancy and then blame themselfs for the failure. It is unfortunate for the hobby, as so many people leaves before they even tried starting in the right way, which is buying inexpensive locally hardy garden center trees, then grow and develop them outdoors. Pretty much as this hobby was for more than 2000 years before mass produced mallsai was "invented".
Excuce my long post, I am bored and cannot sleep
Now, tell us your location, climate and conditions and we can try to guide you throe to the next dormancy. It may not be easy as it has already skipped one, but it can be done. Any design conciderations can wait until at least after the first dormancy. That is 14 months or more and will give you plenty of time to read up on the basics of broom style design. If you are still here by then, I am looking forward to see more specific questions that shows that you have utilized the time at hand well.

Very interesting. Looks like it is a grafted stump. I have never seen such trees sold as mallsai.
I will refraim from answering your questions for now and only answer the important questions you have not yet asked:
Your tree is not a japanese elm (zelkova serrata), it is a chinese elm (ulmus parvifolia). This is the most misslabled tree on the market. Everything points against that it is an intentional misslabeling from the producers. Nobody knows why for sure, but many thinks that it is due to the dutch elm disease. Trees labled ulmus would be in risk of getting stuck in customs and die according to that theory. It sounds like a good theory to me.
Now, it does not matter very much for the buyer as zelkova serrata and ulmus parvifolia both are temperate decidious trees and needs about the same care. Talking about that, here comes the answer on the second question you have not yet asked: No temperate decidious trees survives in livingroom conditions long term. They normally deteriorate slowly over a period of 1-3 years and eventually dies. I would asume what the industry call "indoor" trees is trees that cannot be produced efficiently outdoors everywhere in the temperate world. That they are produced in greenhouses, which is technically indoors. But they still need winter dormancy and the temperature fluctuations between day and night to survive and thrive. I do see an economic incentive to call them indoor trees. The market wants indoor bonsai, so they give the market what they want. The market in this case is defined exclusevly as beginners that would pick up a mallsai tree in a garden center, big buck store or even online. Most of these people will just fail within the 1-3 years the trees can go without proper dormancy and then blame themselfs for the failure. It is unfortunate for the hobby, as so many people leaves before they even tried starting in the right way, which is buying inexpensive locally hardy garden center trees, then grow and develop them outdoors. Pretty much as this hobby was for more than 2000 years before mass produced mallsai was "invented".
Excuce my long post, I am bored and cannot sleep

Now, tell us your location, climate and conditions and we can try to guide you throe to the next dormancy. It may not be easy as it has already skipped one, but it can be done. Any design conciderations can wait until at least after the first dormancy. That is 14 months or more and will give you plenty of time to read up on the basics of broom style design. If you are still here by then, I am looking forward to see more specific questions that shows that you have utilized the time at hand well.
Last Edit:3 weeks 12 hours ago
by Tropfrog
Last edit: 3 weeks 12 hours ago by Tropfrog.
The following user(s) said Thank You: PC404, Cherry_Crow
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Replied by Cherry_Crow on topic My first endeavours - starting with Zelkova
Posted 3 weeks 12 hours ago #85197
Thanks for a reply!
You worried me a little but I am not planning to quit that easily
Well - I live in central Europe close to Baltic see. Winters are not harsh anymore (snow for few days in a year) - dry and around 0-4 degrees Celsius with spikes below 0 for 2-3 weeks at max. Summers quite hot only for short periods - usually between 26-34 degrees. I do have a terrace I can keep the tree on
It is faced south so it’s in quite direct sunlight. I can keep the tree in the winter in the closed garage which should maintain temperatures above 0 degrees - no sunlight there! I am opened for other tree suggestions as well.
You worried me a little but I am not planning to quit that easily


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Replied by Tropfrog on topic My first endeavours - starting with Zelkova
Posted 3 weeks 4 hours ago #85199
That is good news! Your conditions is perfect for chinese elms. I would recomend to put the tree in the garage for now in order to protect it from frost. When risk of frost is over move it outdoors. First in full shade and then gradually over a 4-6 weeks period move it into more and more sun. Once on your sunny patio, you can leave it there forever. Next authum it will prepare for dormancy naturally and frost will not be any problems. The general recomendation is to avoid temperatures below -10 degrees. But my tree was in down to -18 without problems.
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Replied by Cherry_Crow on topic My first endeavours - starting with Zelkova
Posted 3 weeks 2 hours ago #85200
Good to know! I am planning to start with few trees - some older, some younger, just to get a better feeling
I will keep you (thread) posted then!
I read more about Zelkova, and it seems true what you said, the dutch elm disease is to blame. But I am still not sure why wouldn't the suppliers simply use the "real" names.
Any other particular trees you would recommend for this climate?
EDIT: I was planning to start training Myrtus communis - I heard some good opinions on that plant and have a personal sentiment to it too

I read more about Zelkova, and it seems true what you said, the dutch elm disease is to blame. But I am still not sure why wouldn't the suppliers simply use the "real" names.
Any other particular trees you would recommend for this climate?
EDIT: I was planning to start training Myrtus communis - I heard some good opinions on that plant and have a personal sentiment to it too

Last Edit:3 weeks 2 hours ago
by Cherry_Crow
Last edit: 3 weeks 2 hours ago by Cherry_Crow.
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Replied by Tropfrog on topic My first endeavours - starting with Zelkova
Posted 2 weeks 6 days ago #85202
Maples, junipers and pines are great species that takes a while to become mature bonsai. I would recomend to get a few of each for the future.
Ornamental apple and cherrie trees are great and it is wonderful to see them bloom in spring.
cotoneaster and privets is great to have for an unpatient beginners. Grows fast, takes a lot of pruning and wiering. Buy them to train on. It may keep you from overdoing your other trees.
Dawn redwood is very fun. Strong tree that grows heavily and easy to propagate by cuttings. Get one, propagate a bunch for a future forest. That is a nice project.
But there are so many more.
I have a lot of starter materials from cuttings grown here in Sweden that can easily be shipped to poland
.
Ornamental apple and cherrie trees are great and it is wonderful to see them bloom in spring.
cotoneaster and privets is great to have for an unpatient beginners. Grows fast, takes a lot of pruning and wiering. Buy them to train on. It may keep you from overdoing your other trees.
Dawn redwood is very fun. Strong tree that grows heavily and easy to propagate by cuttings. Get one, propagate a bunch for a future forest. That is a nice project.
But there are so many more.
I have a lot of starter materials from cuttings grown here in Sweden that can easily be shipped to poland

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Replied by Cherry_Crow on topic My first endeavours - starting with Zelkova
Posted 2 weeks 6 days ago #85203
All of them are interesting and look beautiful - sadly my terrace has limited space
) I think I will opt for few ornamental apple/cherry and maybe olive tree and 2-3 cotoneasters.
I will reach out to you in PM regarding your proposition on shipping
)
EDIT: Can’t find an option for direct message on my mobile. What’s the best way to contact you?

I will reach out to you in PM regarding your proposition on shipping

EDIT: Can’t find an option for direct message on my mobile. What’s the best way to contact you?

Last Edit:2 weeks 6 days ago
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Last edit: 2 weeks 6 days ago by Cherry_Crow.
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Posted 2 weeks 6 days ago #85204
Tropfrog@rocketmail.com
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Replied by Ivan Mann on topic My first endeavours - starting with Zelkova
Posted 2 weeks 6 days ago #85205
"The general recomendation is to avoid temperatures below -10 degrees. But my tree was in down to -18 without problems."
I think a bigger problem is how fast the temperature drops. We sat here in Birmingham, Alabama, with lows around 45F/7C for weeks and then for three nights lows of 11F/-12C, followed by a week of 45/7 followed by two nights of 21F/-6C. Trees evolved with their roots in a very large heat sink (the planet) and can't handle those swings.
Three years ago temps were above freezing all winter then in April after every one of my trees had leaves two nights of 20/-7.
When it drops a few degrees below freezing I let them handle it. 21F/-6C I put them on the ground. Extreme drops I put them in the garage.
I think a bigger problem is how fast the temperature drops. We sat here in Birmingham, Alabama, with lows around 45F/7C for weeks and then for three nights lows of 11F/-12C, followed by a week of 45/7 followed by two nights of 21F/-6C. Trees evolved with their roots in a very large heat sink (the planet) and can't handle those swings.
Three years ago temps were above freezing all winter then in April after every one of my trees had leaves two nights of 20/-7.
When it drops a few degrees below freezing I let them handle it. 21F/-6C I put them on the ground. Extreme drops I put them in the garage.
by Ivan Mann
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